I recently raised the topic of church with people of varying ages who were over for dinner.  All of us had long history of church attendance in our backgrounds, some still attend church and others don’t, but as we moved beyond the “surface” it felt like each one of us was conflicted about the role and call of the church in our particular situations.  We discovered the common thread was our desire to be faithful followers of Christ and a longing for a “safe place” to bring our questions, frustrations and leadings regarding what that following meant for us both personally and collectively.   This conversation and others have made me wonder about our openness for dialog regarding church.

In early November, Jon and I are going to attend a conference sponsored by Off the Map; an organization that seeks to connect with Spiritual Explorers (people who are trying to make sense out of life and suspect God might somehow be involved).  This conference will focus on providing space for meaningful and connecting dialog, which they suggest, is possible only if we move from “tell” to “listen and ask.” 

So, I’ve been spending some time on their website (www.offthemap.com) when I came across a recent posting in which a 23-year-old man wrote that, “the church sucks.” Jim Henderson, co-founder and executive director of Off the Map, picked up that remark and included it in an opening headline on the website.  Needless to say, he received quite a few concerned comments and he later apologized for unwisely including the off-the-cuff-remark.  But what follows was of great value to me.  He wrote:

 “Just to keep things real and not allow us to slip into non-critical thinking I need to say that when a 23-year-old young person tells me he/she thinks church sucks:

1) I listen
2) I ask why
3) I resist the urge to correct him/her
4) I say thank you for trusting me enough to tell me the truth - I take that as a compliment

I don’t expect them to “take care” of my feelings, opinions or perceptions. Nor do I expect them to have the broadest viewpoint available. They are after all, still young.

What bothers me more is when people my age (45 +) - people with a lot of church time in and  people who themselves know that church can suck enough of the time to bother even them- when they get defensive or go all theological on the younger person- they spend more time telling instead of asking. That is what I truly think is more dangerous and disappointing in the long run.

The particular young man who said this to me is not a disenfranchised angst filled youth. He came straight from Christian stock- his parents are believers and he in fact volunteers full time as an intern for free in one of Seattle’s most cutting edge churches - He is doing work for Off The Map for free so that people who are coming to Off The Map Live will have a better experience.

Bottom line - he earned the right to have an opinion that I took seriously. I wouldn’t have printed it otherwise.

Even though I say all of this, I still am happy that a couple of close friends (who have also earned the right to have me listen closely to what they say) suggested that I apologize. I agree with them that it was not a wise move but I also agree with my young friend that something is seriously broken (a more polite and socially acceptable way to say that church sucks) with what we call church and for that I will not apologize.

I am honored that my young friend trusts me enough to tell me the truth.”

Trusting enough to tell the truth, or I might say, “speaking my truth or my experience,” can be difficult.  The saying, “the truth hurts,” isn’t far from my thoughts, and frankly I don’t like to feel hurt and I don’t like to cause hurt.  The words I have to say are not entirely true but they are not entirely untrue.  They are the best words I have at the time.  Therefore, I appreciate the Quaker understanding that one person seldom possesses all the truth of a situation but it is as we each bring our pieces of truth that a greater truth can be known and then, “way” can open. Many times we refer to this process as group discernment.    

It appears to me that there are many more folks than just youth who are feeling that something is seriously broken (a more polite way and socially acceptable way to say that church sucks) with what we call church, to quote the posting above.  I’m curious about the number of Christ followers who currently find themselves outside the walls of an institutional church.  Some have even gone so far and wonder out loud if perhaps Christ is leading folks outside the church? The specifics of this could mean a variety of things and I’m not suggesting that I have any definitive answer about whether people should or should not leave church.  I have many more questions than answers but I can say I have benefited when others have trusted me enough to tell me their truth.  At these times I have to remember to listen, ask why, resist the urge to correct and express my appreciation for trusting me enough to share their truth.

I am looking forward to the conference.  I’m sure I will have some of my buttons pushed but I hope I can remain open to new ways God may be leading.  I also trust that as we continue to dialog together about church and being faithful followers of Christ we will have the grace for meaningful and connecting dialog which will propel us past our own brokenness, fear or disillusionment so that we can be the light of Christ in service to others.

                                                                                                                                    ~Lynn

North Valley Friends Church Growth discussion at Administrative Committee Meeting: July 31, 2007

Bruce Longstroth served as the presiding clerk, Scot Headley as the recording clerk. About 18 people in attendance.

Bruce made an opening statement regarding the rationale for this special meeting, all NVFC folks were invited for the purpose of discussing growth in the church. Points Bruce made:
· Several months ago the administrative committee received a report from a special task force which outlined a process for discussing growth. Handouts were distributed to participants in this meeting.
· Bruce expressed apprehension and excitement concerning planning for growth at NV.
· He questioned whether the leadership and body at NV had the energy and attention to see changes through.
· Land use committee phase one work almost completed, with phase two about ready to begin.
· Young people (not necessarily those at NV) have a desire to ‘do church differently’.
· Two questions need to be addressed; a) How do we want to manage the growth of the church? and b) If no growth is the preferred option, what do we do, improve quality of the church programs and activities? Regarding managing growth, how is growth defined? Is it number of participants, variety of ministries, size of facility? Priorities are important, that is if we have to make choices, how do we? Regarding the no growth option, how is quality improved? Is it working on priority ministries, personnel, funding?

Bruce distributed a handout that had excerpts from a book that Stan had shared with some, regarding size transitions in a church and asked Stan to make some opening comments.

Stan stated that when he first came to NV he wondered whether the vision of the church body was to limit numerical size. He also wondered about what factors limit growth barriers in churches. He stated that NV is ‘stuck between a pastoral church and a program church (according to the model described in the size transitions book)’. This size church is the most difficult to grow. Questions that Stan posed are, a) what are things we like about being who we are? and b) What are we willing to give up to get what we want?

Bruce opened the discussion up to all participants.

Jon stated that we are discussing what it means to be a missional church. If we want to go outward into the community, is this in tension to growing with ‘bricks and mortar’? He mentioned the possible collaboration over facility sharing with Veritas as an important aspect to be considered.

Bill shared about the beginnings of NV. He said those were exciting times. NV was the product of a merger between two small congregations. People were unified, purchased property and met on hay bales while the facility was being built. There was a purposeful decision made at that time to limit the size and construct the shape of the sanctuary so that a particular type of worship, participatory and inclusive, could be maintained. The choice was made to limit the sanctuary to accommodate no more than 250 people. Several times since the inception of NV, the numerical size of the congregation required decisions about dealing with too many folks in worship service. Several alternatives were tried. Two similar services on Sunday mornings was tried and each time the early service ‘petered out’ due to lack of numbers. Bill stated that some might argue that nothing that was tried to address increasing numbers was successful as those efforts were not sustained.

Al stated that several ideas were discussed, but not implemented. These included having two services with simultaneous Sunday schools running both times. Another idea was to have two services on Sunday morning, but have each very different (music cited as a primary difference) in an attempt to appeal to different segments of the congregation.

Kathleen stated that what she looks for in a church she has gotten at NV. Some of these things are being accountable to others, a group of people who hold similar but not exact values, relationships, support. Sermons that are challenging, small Sunday school group and other people listening are also important. Having access to the pastors is important. NV is a healthy place and is listening to God. The process of making decisions is important and it is a refining process (regardless of the decision).

Bruce stated that if we have excellence, growth is an outcome.

Bill stated that he does not want to be a part of a group that does not want to grow.

Jim stated that if we are doing an excellent job we will grow. He expressed a concern that the young adults at NV are not at this meeting. He stated that we have been successful in reaching out to young adults in some ways but not in others. He also cited the need for commitments, both financial to provide for needs and commitments of time and energy to do projects together, such as building certain buildings on the NV campus. he suggested that sharing our enthusiasm with others is important.

Darlene stated that we need to be responsive when visitors and newcomers come to NV. Many young people are here at NV and that is a remarkable thing. But she admitted that she does not know about the younger generation’s assumptions, commitments and investments. They are not the same as older folks. She stated that the approach of the younger folks is different. She also stated that facilities and resources do need to be available.

Stan reminded the group that NV has done a lot of things right. We may not have physical space and may need to provide more emotional space. Stan shared that he visited a larger church recently with multiple services, he did not like it.
Kathleen stated that maybe the ‘small schools’ approach is appropriate for a church.

Tabitha stated that she grew up in a large church (2,000 members). Although one could not know everyone, she did know many folks and there was a sense of community around smaller groups there.

Scot shared Debbie’s idea from Social Concerns about sending one-fourth of the congregation out every Sunday morning for service projects as part of our worship experience. He also stated the need for education and discipleship to help folks realize the blessing of making and keeping obligations.

Jim cited the GAGA trip as an example of how people get connected in ministry and for ministry.

Kathleen stated that once folks get ‘launched’, they don’t have to be at NV.

Bruce agreed, although he asked, what if they do want to be at NV, do we have room for them? Will we keep losing people out the backdoor?

Tabitha stated that she was influenced by the social concern of NV and that is a big reason why they are here. She cited the sack lunches for the homeless as a great example of getting involved and stated that NV needs to do more of this type of helping ministry.

Earl stated that he thought that we are a multiplicity of congregations at NV. We do need space for people. In his role as greeter, Earl sees lots of newcomers. He has seen cars pull into the parking lot and leave, due to lack of space. He said we are in need of expanding the facility. He suggested that an intentional effort at expanding the small group efforts at NV would be a good idea.

Bruce stated that we are already of a size that no one can know everyone else at NV. Although there a number of smaller cell groups operating.

Lynn stated that in the current model, pastors know all the folks and help them get connected. In children’s department, we have over 50 adult volunteers and need to add about eight more for morning children’s worship. We do currently have gaps in our children’s worker schedule. Several of our kids are needing extra attention due to learning difficulties and attention problems. She believes we are at a crucial stage. Nursery is at capacity with about nine babies in the nursery, with the need for three adults in the nursery regularly. There is a need for space, but an even greater need for people.

Jon shared his experience at a Presbyterian church. Targeting young adults with kids was a successful effort for numerical growth, but brought two distinct congregations, which was a downside to growth.

Bruce shared his experience of visiting a Saturday night service of a church in La Grande, OR. About 200 folks were there, mostly young, although older folks were encouraged to attend.

Jon reminded the group that small groups can meet on any night of the week and in homes, they do not need to meet at the church facility.

Bruce stated that he was pleased to hear different people in this meeting say that they were not in favor of a ‘no growth’ stance.

Jackie shared that NV has had strong kids programs for quite some time. She also reminded us that GFU is a good resource in our community for interns and others seeking ministry opportunities. Parents should be asked to be involved as teachers and helpers and also it is possible that the congregation would give funding for more interns.

Lynn stated that funded interns are used on Wednesday evening for the kids programs then.

Jackie asked if we want to grow, or not. Is there a need for facility or staffing? She reminded us that parents grow as they are involved in helping their kids grow. Parental involvement should be encouraged. Putting a meeting together of parents of young kids to interact with them is a good idea.

Bill raised the question of how excellence is defined. He suspects that not everything done at NV is excellent. He stated that for both adult leadership and facility, plans could be made for both.

Al stated that sharing our enthusiasm for the good things at NV with others is a way of getting others involved. He threw out the idea of using the fellowship hall with television as an overflow area.

Bill shared his experience of being in a Sunday school class with Jimmy Carter recently in Plains GA in which closed circuit TV was used to accommodate large numbers.

Kathleen stated that she has not heard that folks at Newberg Friends Church feel fragmented even though there are three services there and people don’t know many folks from the other services.

Lynn pointed out that there are about eight young couples (pre-kids) in the congregation and there is some work going on to connect these folks. It is unusual for this age folks to be attending church.

Bill stated that pulling groups together was a good idea and Jackie added that if no other time was available, doing that on Sunday morning during worship time was a good idea.

Jim spoke of ‘already-formed’ groups of NV folks and others, getting together for fellowship, support, Bible study, etc.

Lynn said that Newberg is growing, the younger generation longs for connections. Self-selected groups may be hard to break into and newer folks need help getting connected.

Bruce wondered if maybe not shutting the backdoor was appropriate. In other words, maybe the ones that are leaving NV are finding other more appropriate places to be, and that is alright.

Bill suggested that maybe we are chasing some out the backdoor. Maybe we need to be more intentional about planning events to get newcomers connected.

Stan pointed out that in his view we are already organizing ourselves as a ‘program church’. The problem is not that we are not welcoming but that we need ways of organizing ourselves differently.

Darlene said that she believed that by listening to one another, we can hear God’s voice. We can be more conscious about providing the structure for listening to one another.

Jim spoke about Lynn’s identification of a definite need. Maybe we need to consider going outside of our budget to hire interns to address Sunday morning staffing needs. He would like to also get information from various groups in the congregation.

Lynn and Scot spoke to the Education Committee efforts to raise up more volunteers and for a ministry fair in the fall to share information about various aspects of congregational life.

Bruce suggested that the Education Committee report back on staffing needs.

Annie stated that getting parents together to speak about needs for involvement and financial commitments was a good idea.

Stan said that he liked the idea of getting groups together.

Darlene suggested that identifying leaders in each group was a way of pulling the groups together.

Bill said that letting others in the congregation see our enthusiasm was a way of helping others get involved.

Kathleen recalled a request for parents to help fund the Wednesday programs for kids.

Lynn stated that those funds were used in paying for supplies and curriculum but that there was some pushback from some parents about having to pay. The dinner portion of Wednesday night activities is fairly self-sustaining.
Jim suggested bringing a proposal which outlines needs.

Darlene stated her belief that NV is a vital community and that God is active among us.

Bruce proposed that a possible next step was to determine what others are thinking and that there needs to be an effective way of getting others to provide input.

Earl reminded us that stewardship is important and that God provides.

Stan stated that this meeting was the first of many conversations.

Al stated that from the very beginning, NVFC has been engaged in prayer and listening to one another.

Bruce adjourned the meeting.

Check out Acts 18: 1-11  You’ll notice that in Corinth Paul runs into some difficult and discouraging circumstances.  At the same time there are several things that provide him with encouragement and hope.

As you think about your own desire to be missional or to reach out to friends and neighbors, what are some of the elements that you find discouraging?  Is you area a difficult place to do ministry?  What seems to be working against you?  Are you encountering any rejection?  What sustains you?  Where do you find encouragement?  Where do you sense God’s activity as you reach out?  Do you have any suggestions or encouragement for others who are also involved in ministry?  Leave your comments below.

I’ve been struck as we read the accounts of “Doubting Thomas” (John 20:24-29) and the story of  Jesus’ invitation to Simon and Andrew to “follow me.”  Thomas, upon seeing the resurrected Jesus and being invited to touch his wounds exclaims, “My Lord and My God!”, and Simon (Peter) upon seeing the miraculous catch of fish kneels and says, “Go away from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man.”  Also, Isaiah’s autobiographical report of his vision of God in the Temple includes his reponse to his seeing God “high and lifted up; with the hem of His robe filling the temple” which was “Woe is me!  I am lost for I am a man of unclean lips…; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”  (Isaiah 6:1-5)

These seem like such healthy responses to Christ/God.  All three of these men moved from these moments of profound worship of God to lifetimes of service.  I wonder if most Christians have experiences such as these men did.  I don’t mean the exact same circumstances and events, but a similar encounter with God’s majesty - one profound enough that one is driven to one’s knees (maybe not literally, but spiritually) out of a recognition of God’s or Jesus’ holiness, majesty, or sovereignty.  Do you have such an experience?  Would you be willing to share it in response to this post?  How does God’s Greatness and/or Christ’s presence impact you in your daily lives or in your worship, either private or corporate?

I have been looking over some of my early Quaker stuff in anticipation of Cherice’s Wednesday evening discussions and it has struck me how much I appreciate the strong preaching of George Fox and his contemporaries.  A quick glance at era’s during which Friends’ ministry was powerful seems to point to a correlation to times during which the vocal ministry was powerful.

This train of thought brought me to wonder about the role of vocal ministry in programmed meetings. 

When I visited Friends in Ireland (unprogrammed AND evangelical) I noticed a pronounced vitality in their meetings and a strong prophetic (and evangelistic) spirit in the meetings I visited.  (just two meetings on two different Sundays)  In both cases I learned that a few ”weighty Friends” in each meeting would come with a message on their hearts over which they had prayed and studied (a bit like my own preparation for a sermon).  In the silence of worship they would seek the Spirit’s guidance in deciding whether to stand and vocalize that message.  Quite often only one or sometimes none of the prepared Friends would actually speak.

I think we give lip service to a similar dynamic in our meetings.  Certainly we encourage people to stand and give voice to what they believe is a message God has given them for this community of faith on this given Sunday.  I like that practice.

In practicality, however, it is problematic when one’s message eclipses the programmed part of worship.  Sometimes the community becomes anxious when one’s message begins to encroach the space usually taken by the sermon.  In such cases it almost seems we are at odds with our own tradition.

Roy Gathercoal and I have been in an ongoing conversation about this topic, more specifically - the role of prophetic voice in programmed meetings like ours.  The following questions seem important to address.  It would be good to include more of you in the conversations.

Some questions occur to me at this point:

1.  What does it me to prepare for worship in programmed meeting? 

2.  Should several of us prepare messages and then wait for the Spirit’s leading?

3.  Sine we can’t be both programmed and unprogrammed at the same time, how do we accomodate the person who feels nudged to vocalize a message?

4.  What kind of oversight should we provide for worship in terms of the spoken ministry?

5.  What do you do in preparation for worship?  Does it occur to you that perhaps you might be the message bearer on any given Sunday?

6.  Should we leave the time usually taken by a prepared message by a pastor open once a month for others to speak?

7.  Should we add 15 minutes to our meetings to give more time for vocal ministry by others?

8.  Should we provide other venues for people to clear themselves of the messages God puts on their hearts?

I’d like to hear what you think would be best for North Valley as we go forward.

One of the things that gives me life lately is blogging, and reading other blogs. Blogging helps me process what I’m thinking about and learning, and it’s helpful to have it commented upon by people who may or may not share my perspective. In this way my opinions are challenged, and I am connected with like-minded people who I wouldn’t otherwise ever know.

Right now there’s a pretty healthy community of Quaker bloggers out there in the “blogosphere,” and the best way to find out about them is to go to quakerquaker.org, which lists many of the best/most consistent Quaker blogs. It’s fun to read what other Quakers are thinking about, and how Quakerism is practiced around the world (at least the English-speaking world).

Reading Quaker blogs are a fun way to be part of the “online conversation” that happens in our culture. Among Quaker bloggers there is an almost automatic sense of community because we’re all Friends. Right now there’s a movement some are calling “Convergent Friends,” where each blogger is thinking about what it means to be a Friend and being drawn together in the process. This conversation about identity would be different if we had it only with others from North Valley, or only people from Northwest Yearly Meeting. Instead, in this online venue, it can be a conversation where people with all different opinions can share their voice.

Obviously the blogosphere isn’t the best place for communal discernment or for making definitive decisions about what it means to be a Friend, but it’s an interesting conversation that connects us with the culture through asking about our relevence to the world and to one another as branches of Friends.

Check out quakerquaker.org for many Quaker blogs. My blog site is quakeroatslive.blogspot.com. If any of you at North Valley have blogs you want listed on the website let me know and I’ll add your link!

1. Do you believe God’s plan is large enough to tackle global warming, war, terror, genocide, and apathy? Do you trust God to use you in your daily life to confront these evils?

2. Do you have faith that God can use you, and others from North Valley to bring about the changes necessary to tackle global warming, war, terror, genocide, and apathy?

3. Do you experience the grace of God as sufficient for all your failings? That even as you contribute to the evils of the world, the love of God is a transformative power in your life leading you to a better way of being?

4. Do you understand and practice a commitment to non-violence and peace making, both in your home and community? Do you extend the grace God has given you to others, a grace that frees you from guilt and leads you in love to a life of discipleship?

5. If you have believed, have you been given the courage to act? If the courage has been given, will you ask for the strength to continue? If given the strength, will you give grace to those who have not believed, lacked the courage, or whose strength has failed?

6. Do you have the humility to know that more can be done, and the faithfulness to listen?

ZECHARIAH

     Use your imagination and picture yourself in the middle of your daily routine; suddenly an angel appears and tells you that God has a plan that would completely change your life? How would you respond? 
     Last week we reflected on Gabriel’s appearance to Mary and this week we will consider Gabriel’s appearance to the priest Zechariah in the temple as he conducts his duties. Zechariah “was startled and gripped with fear.” Well, I suppose you and I would be, too. 
     “Do not be afraid, Zechariah,” Gabriel tells him. “Your prayer has been heard. Your wife, Elizabeth, will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John … he will be great in the sight of the Lord. Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous - to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”  Luke 1: 13-17
     Zechariah has been confronted with the heavenly glory of God’s messenger, a clearly supernatural interruption of his day. Yet his response to the angel’s astounding news is to try and fit it into his existing assumptions about his life and his future.
     “How can I be sure of this?” responds Zechariah. “I am an old man and my wife is well along in years.” Zechariah can’t believe that he and Elizabeth could have a child, much less grasp the magnitude of John The Baptist’s mission.  Gabriel, who was pretty sure he was being clear, is unamused. “I stand in the presence of God,” he says. “You will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time.”
     When God communicates with us or takes action in our lives, it is rarely with the impact of the angel’s appearance. But I think our reaction is often much like Zechariah’s. We question whether it is real. “Was that God speaking to me, or a hallucination? Was that a miracle, or just a coincidence? And if that really WAS God, can that really be what He meant?”
     While we may relate to Zechariah’s confusion and skepticism, we must be aware that it has its cost. It’s not so much that we might be struck dumb if we doubt God’s authority or interest in us, but that we might miss the blessings and peace God desires to share with us.  Whether they come to us through a heavenly messenger, a passage of Scripture, prayer or a process of discernment; God’s promises and movements in our lives are trustworthy, and our ability to accept them and live them is limited primarily by our ability to believe them. As Zechariah’s story demonstrates, God is never predictable, but is always faithful.